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So in the past there has always been confusion at times, as to how we deal with models that are "too recognisable". Some users would simply research the model and vote with what they felt was "too famous" even though they didn't actually recognise the model themselves. Now on top of that, we have the model prize, but obviously it needed a degree of limits because some models would be just either in bad taste to use (like the actor that plays Percy Jackson) or completely absurd to use (like the actor that plays Harry Potter.) However, "too recognisable" isn't always the same as "too famous". So first let me break down what the initial "too recognisable" rule means.
Our wiki represents a wide variety of countries, cultures, ages and interests. What we try to do, is focus on what's "too recognisable" to our wiki. I don't care what the rest of the world feels, only what our wiki feels. For instance, not everyone watches Doctor Who at all, and might vaguely recognise an image of the recent doctor if they watch a lot of Television, but they might not recognise one of the companion actors at all. There's a good chunk of users on our wiki that don't like or bother watching Doctor Who. Now to us Doctor Who fans, we might find it absurd that Jenna-Louise Coleman isn't recognised by more users on the wiki, we see Doctor Who as a really popular program. This is why credits don't play a part, or shouldn't, when voting for the initial too recognisable vote. It should be simple, do you, or don't you, recognise them.
With the new prize we have, using a model that most would recognise, it goes beyond just being recognised. Odds are if the prize is being used, it's because most on the wiki would recognise this person. Because of that we need a different standard to judge what is "too famous". This should, in theory, be entirely different than just personal opinion or interest. What defines too famous. This is where it could get complicated, and even if we agree to vote on all models before the prize can be used, we need a more concrete idea of how to vote if it can't be based on what we personally recognise. For instance, I hardly consider 20 to 30 minutes of acting across 5 films, a big role, even if the films were big hits. However, someone who perhaps stared in a hit tv show, for quite a number of years, and have done numerous hit movies that also were very popular, that might be someone that could be considered too famous.
The purpose of this debate is to get the feelings and views of other users. We desperately need a way to judge what is too famous, but it can't just based on if someone is recognised, it has to be more than that. It also has to be more than just a personal view of how popular a show is. I feel it should be some combination of how many starring roles they've done in popular movies and films. As far as singers or models who aren't in films, this could be even more difficult.
Please leave questions, comments, suggestions here so we can talk about it.
Well, as most of you know, its pretty easy to say whether or not you recognize a person. Simple right?
For this new voting of "Too Famous", Wikipedia IMDB, has a wonderful thing and it lists all of the TV shows and Movies that a "Model" has been in. I think that we need to decide upon what number of TV shows/ Movies, and how long the "Model" had a role in said TV shows/Movies.
For example, Say you have a "Model" who has acted as one of the main characters in a TV show that lasted a season, I would think that if the season had more than thirty episodes, then that person can be considered slightly famous. BUT now get this, the "Model" is in three other TV shows and plays a similar role of Main Character. We would then go from and ask, "Have they been in any movies?" If so, we judge, were they a main character or a minor character.
I personally feel that when voting upon a person, all of the movies and TV shows they have had a role in would be listed with the voting. That way each user, gets told from a reliable source, whether or not the "Model" in question has lead/minor/recurring roles in movies and TV shows.
From all this, I say that at the very least, we take away the fact that we need to have a minimum for being "Too Famous" Such as having:
A Lead role in more than a total 4 Seasons of a show or shows.
Multiple Lead roles in different movies (possibly totaling to more than 5 movies.
A combination of the two, that would be a very gray area, as people have differing opinions on everything.
The next step is to decide when was the "Model's" last "performance" was. In other words, starring as a lead role in a TV show or Movie.
Just some food for thought guys!
~Thanks to Bach for the helpful hints. like IMDB :P and well what exactly it is that we're debating about. c: ~
Well I should begin by saying that I think it's impossible to quantify popularity. Sure, we can vote whether we recognize or do not recognize a famous individual, but all that does is set a precedent for the visual memory of a specific userbase at a specific time. Given a year, that userbase or memory can have changed drastically. I may not have known who Anna Torv was last year, but now I do, most of you probably do not. Until a minute ago, I had entirely forgotten who Milla Jovovich was despite the fact that I'd seen her in at least 6 seperate movies, and probably wouldn't have recognized her until I saw her name in association with one of the movies. Given this, short of somehow banning images of every potentially famous individual from the wiki, the extent to which some is or isn't recognizable is entirely arbitrary. The most we can do is attempt to contain the damage, and while it'd be wonderful to be able to vote on each image once every six months or so and thus keep these statuses up to date, doing so would be a massive pain in the ass and would probably backfire anyway. Seeing an image once every so many months would do more to make it recognizable than anything else. As a result, I think the best answer is to continue with the current system, but ensure that any image of a recognizable individual cannot be permanently granted rights to be used. This is to say that, while we might be able to grant an image use for a year or so, if its status is challenged by any user, the vote can be re-held to ascertain whether things have changed or not.
Seeing as I've refreshed this forum and I can see that Hydro has posted, I'll take a moment to respond to him. Hydro, I don't think that your approach will work particularly well since, as I said at the beginning of my statement, "I think it's impossible to quantify popularity". Keep in mind that the images we're dealing with aren't only actors, but often serve in a large number of other roles, and many(like anime characters) can be reproduced by artists and amateurs well outside official jurisdiction that the IMDB would keep track of. An excellent example would be Hatsune Miku. Outside of Japan and a section of youth culture, she is virtually unheard of beyond a few small news articles discussing her unusual popularity. For any of these people, it wouldn't matter, but then you've got the fact that she's plastered across the face of Deviant Art like nothing else, has an internet meme, and still remains an extremely popular form of entertainment in Japan. Anyone who's heard of or seen her in any of those places will immediately recognize her, but for those who haven't, she's just another anime character. Once you attempt to break things down numerically or, as I said, 'quantify' them, you run into the issues of marginals, or things that just barely cross or don't cross the line. And that's assuming that we can even set up an effective "line" to begin with. If people want to go with that strategy they can feel free, but I assure you, it won't be particularly effective.
Well I can agree, it would be very hard to set up a basis upon which to vote for these "Models", most likely that would be impossible. Yes it would be much harder to get anime characters popularity decided on. I truly don't think that we should ban images of popular people, that would probably make things worse than they are now, as we would again, have to decide what is popular and what isn't.
Upon the issue of "marginals", I think that we will always have that, as there will be always things that just barely get by or are just under the okay zone.
I think that we could always vote with the system we have now, but it would appear that we are trying to find a steadier, (more margin based voting).
As far as how we handle the too recognisable votes, I think we've done well with that, we've handled re-votes in the past when a lot of time has past accounting for a drastically new user base. However, when it comes to the model prize and needing to decide if a model is too famous to use, that's different. We either need to come up with a reasonable way to deal with the criteria in deciding that, or do away with the prize entirely as a lost cause.
Now I wouldn't mind having the prize being deleted, but I also like the fact that Bach said there should be a vote on who is too famous. Now I honestly like Bach's idea of voting and calculating what they've been in. With this it would be easier to manage in my opinion.
She also mentioned having it be an admin team only vote last night, which would probably be a lot easier, considering we'd have a smaller group that would dole out biases; as well as having guidelines for users with rights to follow when voting (how long they've been popular, most recent and popular project, how many movies they've been in, etc.}