ON HOLD. DO NOT VOTE.
This is an administration team vote. Level 5 users, please do not vote.
Early this morning, Flop raised concerns regarding my character Blair Kzamaryk, who is a ghost that never went to Camp in her lifetime and thus cannot appear there. Blair was a daughter of the god of nightmares Phobetor in life and thus carried an innate proficiency for lucidly shaping/navigating the Greek shared dreamscape, which she did extensively for years leading up to her death. This character was intended from the time of claiming to interact with other characters thanks to her dream-walking talents, letting her encounter other characters adrift in the dreamscape and influence their dreams to change her form. This was made clear rather explicitly in a preliminary comment I left on the claim before it had even been reviewed, as I trusted it the question would immediately come up otherwise, and I made zero effort to hide that that was my intent for the character.
In a Discord conversation this morning, Flop expressed the view that Blair's capacity to navigate dreams despite losing her demigod powers after becoming a ghost was in violation of the wiki's policies, and after a period of argument, Flop placed the character under lockdown for further notice. Given the fact that I had been in the middle of a roleplay with the character at the time and that decanonizing her potential to roam through the dreamscape would effectively mean the character had no way left to interact with other characters for roleplay purposes whatsoever, I wished to argue my case then and there. Unfortunately, and through no fault of their own, Flop and Kevin - the two people aware of the conversation at the time, both went offline shortly after and left me with no expedient recourse to get my character back. For lack of the presence of the four admins I spoke with this morning (counting Omni, who was present but didn't want to get involved, and Brocky who wasn't online), I instead opted to follow the procedure of contacting the administration team to dispute the character's lockdown through a less time-sensitive means by putting it up to this admin-only vote.
The crux of Flop and I's disagreement on Blair's circumstances was whether Blair, as a ghost that no longer had access to her Phantasos powers, was even capable of navigating or influencing dreams. Flop argued that, as the potential to do so isn't explicitly included in the ghost set, Blair would lose the ability on death.
I would agree with that logic had Blair needed powerset to navigate and shape dreams in the first place, that is a false pretense. I argued that there is evidence across several levels of canon priority (the wiki's own alterations, Riordan's books, recorded Greek mythology, and real-life example) that Blair - and for that matter, anyone else in our wiki's setting, including mortals - can alter, traverse and share dreams without needing a single supernatural ability to do so. The potential to warp the dreamscape comes not from any powers intrinsic to the people that do it, but instead the very fundamental nature of dreams in our wiki's setting. Below I have compiled a thorough, formatted breakdown of why I consider this to be the case and an explanation of how it contradicts the grounds of Blair's lockdown, complete with quotes and cited sources across all four mentioned canon tiers:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TgqC-X9r3tbkneOfOB0nxp5OiaGl0C-BVq5kg3OdFoc/edit?usp=sharing
Furthermore, given the extensively cited and researched nature of the arguments in the document demonstrating that dream-influencing is a universally accessibility, to which Morpheus, Phobetor, Phantasos and Hypnos demigods simply possess natural talent for (in the same way children of Ares possess a natural talent for, but not unique ability to be fundamentally capable of, physical combat), this vote can also serve as a firm wiki canonization of the fact that dream-influencing is a technique that can be employed and honed by anyone in our wiki's world with sufficient practice. On technicality, be aware that this detail should already be canon given that it can be seen at multiple tiers of canon to be accurate, and our acting approach to canon policy so far has to my knowledge always been that we go with the books/myths unless we decide not to for some given detail, not that every detail of the books and mythology needs to be put to vote before it is eligible for use. Rather, the idea that the vote on this issue can firmly canonize or decanonize dream-shaping and dream traversal as a skill technically usable by anyone is simply a formality, so that a clear and explicit ruling can be pointed to in an official vote should the question ever come up again in the future.
Should anyone take issue with the contents of my arguments presented in the linked google doc, I strongly encourage you to raise them. I'll respond to any comments on this page as quickly as I can, and will be accessible on Discord as well.
-Toxyca
UPDATE: With the go-ahead from Yorkie, I will be drafting up a second, more standard vote in order to hopefully concretely canonize the dreamscape's innate responsiveness and malleability to the will of dreamers as Blair displays, regardless of a dreamer's parentage or special abilities, so that the arguments for such may be weighed on their own merit, divorced from the context of Blair's lockdown situation. As the canonicity of this function of the dream world lies at the core of this dispute, this vote is now on hold until the other can be completed. Given that this is a worldbuilding element affecting the wiki as a whole in the same capacity of things like the Coronavirus inclusion or potential powers of legacies, the vote is Level 5 and Up rather than staff-specific.
A link will be placed here as soon as the new vote's page is created.
The Lockdown Should be Lifted (+1)
- Yikes o.o
- ON HOLD, DO NOT VOTE
The Lockdown Should Not be Lifted (+1)
Comments
I think we shouldn't be making the question of a character lockdown and inflating it with the way we see dreams.
IMHO, dreams are ambiguous enough that if we wanted to make it general wikia canon, we would need actual vote on allowing it, because it's a grey area. Also, to be clear, you bringing up that Blair is a child of Phobetor and that enhances her powers, does not help your case because it makes it seem like what you're saying is she retained powers.
I won't be voting on this, and until something happens in regards to making a vote about general dream manipulation. Also, you seem to imply dreams happen in the underworld as part of your defense in discord, and again, that's another grey area we would need to vote on.
I would vote to keep Blair on lockdown, but because you're conflating this as a policy vote as well, I can't do that in good conscience.
Manolo Should I fly to the sky ❤ Special:EditCount/Zany Knave
I'd like to see Lyra and/or Kevin's arguments for locking Blair down as we only have your argument to go off of, no matter how well written it is. Likewise, I am inclined to agree with Manolo in that this goes beyond a single character but more the issues of policy and canon. Perhaps Blair could've waited until relevant votes were passed before creation (whether this be her page creation or actually being claimed), as to avoid this in the future. I'm abstaining for now, however I do intend to vote on this when I have more information available to me from the other side of the coin.
Oli Move over sis, it's Jan! ❤
To Yorkie and Oli, regarding the concern that the two intertwined halves of this vote (Blair's lockdown and the canonicity of dream manipulation that would determine the outcome of her lockdown) should be split, so that the community could independently reach a conclusion about dream mechanics. I gave a reply to this in Discord that I'm copying here for consistency:
"Ultimately the outcome of Blair's lockdown is tied directly to how we rule on the functionality of dreaming. If it is a universally applicable skill, the reason given for Blair's lockdown can be immediately seen to be false and the lockdown lifted. If it is not something accessible without explicit powers, Blair's premise is fundamentally flawed and the character, as is, must be deleted. As the outcome of that lore ruling is at the heart of her lockdown status, the intent of the staff vote is to determine her legitimacy by giving an official voted ruling on the functionality of dreams. Under the circumstances, I could have also posed the question of dream implementation to the entire community, but felt that it would be inappropriate. The vote would be so indirectly tied to Blair's lockdown that the impression may be given that I attempted to sidestep a lockdown by appealing it to the community at large, rather than staff, as our lockdown policy requires. For that reason I elected to keep the vote among staff out of the gate.
Should this solution be too atypical, I am willing to put the canon-policy portion of the vote (without direct involvement of Blair) to a Level 5 vote instead, if other staff members approve of doing so, and let the staff vote determining Blair's fate continue separately."
If anyone here believes it would be better that such a separate vote be made, tell me to do so and it will be done. I am simply hesistant to do so without someone else's direct approval so as to avoid any messy impressions that I am doing so as part of an effort to undermine staff authority on Blair's lockdown status.
To Yorkie's comments regarding my mention of Blair's Phobetor powers in what was interpreted as an implication that they were required for her to hold the level of dream manipulation prowess displayed, this was not the intent. On the contrary, I brought them up both in the doc and in the fifth paragraph of this vote page to demonstrate that they were not relevant to her potential as a ghost as they did not actively amplify her dream-manipulation, only gift her with an innate level of skill at it from birth. My initial response to this subject as given on Discord was this:
"My argument for universal dream manipulation as posed in the doc aimed to demonstrate that that trait did not give her any unique potential, but rather simply inborn talent. The enhancement is a natural proficiency for the skill in much the same respect as other inherent skills, such as the combat abilities of an Ares demigod of wit of an Athena demigod. Being purely mental in nature, losing access to the initial source of that innate skill would have no bearing on her continued familiarity with it. I don't think anyone would argue an Athena kid's IQ drops upon becoming a ghost, for example."
Kevin, I notice that you voted against without an explanation why. Having made abundant effort myself to lay out my arguments in a formal appeal, and given that multiple others are currently abstaining in order to see other input, with Oli even mentioning you directly, your logic would be appreciated. Of course, you are not obligated to do so if you don't want to.
In response to Oli's question, as admins of the department, we gave Toxyca our stance/opinion/verdict on the matter. We were met with utter dismissal and a lack of cooperation on Toxyca's part. The conversation was clearly going nowhere and we were at a stalemate. Unfortunately, our department bureaucrat (Yorkie) wasn't online at the time. Hence, Flop used her best judgment and made the decision to lock down the character to highlight this pressing concern (and I fully stand by her decision) until further discussion and until Yorkie can mediate the situation.
I don't want to speak too much for Flop, but our stance was made very clear to Toxyca per our discussion with him. To be very blunt, Toxyca, your constant dismissal of our stance by no means equates to a lack of explanation from our part. Regardless, the reasons behind such a decision align with Yorkie's current verdict/opinion on the matter. To parrot off what Yorkie had said, the dream ordeal is ambiguous at best and unreliable and unclear if we're being realistic here. Without any defined policies/votes to govern this matter, we defaulted to our power set policies which disallow the inclusion of extra/custom powers not belonging to the power set. We asserted that our policy behind power sets exist to govern the powers that a character has access to. This is an important aspect of maintaining/preserving the parity between characters on our wiki. As a ghost (who are considered minor characters), Blair wouldn't retain her demigod powers under any circumstances. Thus, any additional powers not belonging to the ghost power set are strictly not allowed per our policies and evidently, the powers you bestowed upon Blair originate from her former demigod powers as a daughter of Phobeter
It's hard for me to argue against the case you made in the Google Doc. You've clearly explained yourself by actually citing wiki canon, real Greek mythology, and Rick Riordan's canon. I personally feel that this is all within the realm of your creative freedom. I'm voting in favor. Yikes o.o
In the same vein, Kevin, your dismissal of my stance by no means equates to a lack of valid counterargument from me. It is my right to dispute the grounds of the lockdown on my character with the administration team, and restating your own initial point without fairly acknowledging the thorough breakdown and counter I gave it is unjust. I did acknowledge and directly respond to the arguments you and Flop raised, and should anyone doubt that, I point to the accuracy with which I presented them above:
"The crux of Flop and I's disagreement on Blair's circumstances was whether Blair, as a ghost that no longer had access to her Phantasos powers, was even capable of navigating or influencing dreams. Flop argued that, as the potential to do so isn't explicitly included in the ghost set, Blair would lose the ability on death.
I would agree with that logic had Blair needed powerset to navigate and shape dreams in the first place, that is a false pretense. I argued that there is evidence across several levels of canon priority (the wiki's own alterations, Riordan's books, recorded Greek mythology, and real-life example) that Blair [...] can alter, traverse and share dreams without needing a single supernatural ability to do so."
You repeatedly claim that Blair cannot influence or navigate dreams because she no longer has the Phobetor powers she had in life. My counterpoint to that is that her ability to influence and navigate dreams does not stem solely from her Phobetor powers in the first place, but rather is a consistent element of the Greek dream-world divorced from any particular magical powers, and thus she doesn't even need her Phobetor powers to do so. As I am entitled to per policy in disputing a character lockdown, I have acknowledged and given a concise counter to your argument. You have not given me the same credit in turn. Is there anything further I can do to satisfy you that I acknowledge and understand your case? Am I missing any detail of it? Is there any aspect of your argument that you do not consider my counterargument to soundly address?
That aside, Yorkie has graciously approved of putting the explanation/interpretation of the nature of the Greek dream world to a separate, normal vote so that its position in our canon can be more clearly evaluated before voting on Blair's circumstances proceed. I am very thankful for the go-ahead to do so - as said, I'd wished to from the start, but didn't want to give the wrong idea. I'm going to be freezing this vote for the time being until the relevant information from the second vote can be finalized.
To be concise with my thoughts
- I don't have a problem with dream manipulation overall, I just think we need to have it passed via policy
- I have a problem with Blair retaining demigod powers if she's categorized as a ghost
- I have a problem that there is not set where she pulls from her demigod powers
- I have a problem that you explicitly stated in the group chat that you intentionally misled claimers
Manolo Should I fly to the sky ❤ Special:EditCount/Zany Knave
To be frank, I'm very tired of even discussing this. This entire argument has been heavily negative and I genuinely don't want to discuss it anymore. That said, I'll explain as best I can what happened from my point of view, and why I put Blair on lockdown.
Toxyca very briefly mentioned their character tranforming into a monstrous form in another character's dream in our claiming group. Understandably, several of us were concerned, due to the fact that these abilities weren't in the ghost powerset - the only powers that as a ghost, Blair should have access to. Toxyca's original explanation, and I quote, was "demigods retain their powers in the afterlife until passing through the Styx and being assigned to punishment/asphoel/etc which she never did since she was in the underworld when she died". In her history, there was no mention of Blair ever visiting the underworld.
Toxy then proceeded to say they were surprised that I didn't have issue with this at the time of claiming. Frankly, this is my fault. I misunderstood the claim. I believed actions that Blair took while apparently "shared dreaming" were in the real world, with her own body. I made a mistake, and I shouldn't have let Blair through claiming. I'm sorry.
Toxy then continued to argue that their character should still have their demigod powers, and then proceeded to argue that Blair shouldn't need demigod powers to "share" and affect the dreams of others. I saw absolutely no reason why that would be the case. The abiility to manipulate the dreams of others, even if it's "shared", is not in the ghost powerset. It's a seperate ability, that not anyone can just do. This falls under the same god of any demigod learning how to control the mist - we regulate this. How? With powersets. Demigods, ghosts and others are given a specific set of powers to mitigate any op-ness or other unfair abilities they shouldn't have. As such, Blair cannot access those abilities, per policy.
This argument then continued, running in circles, for about another half hour.
The dreamscape is going to be a seperate vote now. Personally, with no wiki canon, shaky PJO canon, and incredibly vague mythology, I can't see it passing - but I still don't believe it would apply to Blair, as she had never physically stepped foot there in her life. As such, if we choose to allow dream manipulation and so on, Blair still couldn't.
This argument has been a pain. Toxy was told by no less than three admins - myself, KMO (apologies for not finding the correct O character) and Aeriesol - that their character was breaking policy. Toxy refused to listen, and no matter how much we tried to explain the issue, Toxy continued to argue. Based on all the above, and that I was done with a negative argument that felt like it was undermining all of our authority, I placed Blair under lockdown until I was ready to figure this out the next day.
If the vote wasn't on hold, I would vote a resounding no. I'm frustrated, and I can't explain my position and reasoning more simply than this.
I'm Still Standing ~ Flopfish3
I understand that everybody is a bit frustrated. Lets make a point to remember that this is a policy debate and nothing more. Everybody has the right to raise a fair debate. Lets allow our voting system to solve this conflict and enjoy our time on the wiki. At the end of the day we are all friends here. Yikes o.o
At this point, it is no longer a policy vote (which is good), its back to being a lockdown vote. I think flop is fair to be upset given that she had the support of two other team members on her analysis of the situation, and when this vote was set up initially to pass as a policy vote, it seemed to again question her judgement. I think her judgement was sound with the information we had present. So I suppose that makes four claiming personnel,
Manolo Should I fly to the sky ❤ Special:EditCount/Zany Knave
I was speaking to everybody regarding being frustrated not just Flop. In my opinion all users should have the right to put legitimate policy concerns up for debate or voting when necessary. Its hard for me to see so much frustration between people i know and love when its regarding a policy disagreement. I apologize if my response sounded negative i'm legitimately searching for a better path forward where everyone feels more comfortable in this debate. Lets make this a safe place and remember that this frustration is not personal.
Thank you for rejoining the discussion, Flop. As this vote is on hold pending the resolution of the other, and the other vote has at minimum a 24-hour grace period per the new policies, we have at least a day to approach this subject with cooler heads and present our points clearly.
"Toxyca's original explanation, and I quote, was "demigods retain their powers in the afterlife until passing through the Styx and being assigned to punishment/asphoel/etc which she never did since she was in the underworld when she died"."
That is indeed a direct quote, but it is not my original explanation. When the conversation first arose, I gave two distinct arguments - one positing that it should already be canon that dreams can be navigated and controlled without needing any specific powers, and one putting forward a more ambiguous separate argument that ghosts, in the realm of the dead, would still have their powers anyway. Both of these cases are present in the linked google doc: the former makes up the vast majority of the document, while the latter, not being necessary or especially relevant to her lockdown anyway, was given an extra mention at the end.
My "original explanation" was that Blair was manipulating the dreamscape using a universal skill rather than supernatural ability, accessible to all demigods regardless of parentage. After this was misinterpreted and the conversation remained on the subject of her Phobetor powers, I brought up that I believed there was canon basis for souls to keep their powers while in the underworld until they either left for the living world or were given a punishment, while attempting to stand my ground and remain clear that this wasn't actually required for what Blair was doing. Clearly that was a bad idea. I am far from invested in the idea that ghosts would function as living souls from a powers perspective while in the Underworld, and after four or five minutes of that line of discussion, I realized my mistake in accidentally shifting it that way, and tried to bring it back on topic to the original point I had made when it all began. This vote does not concern retaining demigod powers as a ghost. I apologize for the fact that I'd inadvertently opened that can of worms mid-way through our debate.
The dreamscape is going to be a seperate vote now. Personally, with no wiki canon, shaky PJO canon, and incredibly vague mythology, I can't see it passing - but I still don't believe it would apply to Blair, as she had never physically stepped foot there in her life. As such, if we choose to allow dream manipulation and so on, Blair still couldn't.
I recommend you take that complaint to the other vote, and give it, and the attached document (which is an exerpt from the one on this page) a fair read. The document has a variety of direct quotes and other sources that I believe go beyond "shaky" and "incredibly vague". If you wish to dispute those sources, leave a comment there, or message me on Discord, and I'd be happy to follow up. I'm grateful that Kevin and I were recently able to reach a common ground doing the same.