NOTE: This vote will be open longer than the average twelve votes rule as this is a major decision for the wiki. The vote will close on 10th May 2020 at midnight GMT.
The Proposal
Following the passing and introduction of hearth nymphs, it was brought to my attention on the Discord server that some believed that Hestia could be a viable godparent. Whilst we had a forum that discussed if she should be a cabin god - albeit the consensus was that Hestia wouldn't have kids - we need to have this conversation eventually surrounding Vesta, Hestia's Roman form.
The following proposal is regarding if Hestia and/or Vesta can be viable godparents. I appreciate the following proposal will be a lengthy read but this is an important change we'd be making on the wiki, should it be passed in any sense of the word. Please read everything carefully before voting. Should this pass with Hestia having kids, another vote will be put up debating whether or not they should be at Camp or not.
Oli Move over sis, it's Jan! ❤
Arguments For Hestia as a Godly Parent
- The River Styx Oath can be seen as a massive enabling of Hestia having children;
- Under the oath, Hestia would never have to raise and mother the children, that being a distinguished difference between her and her mother; Rhea loved being a mother, Hestia wanted nothing to do with motherhood. The Styx Oath makes that obligation null and thus we can remove this fear, to some extent.
- Through the oath, Hestia could give infertile couples or the mortals that she loved children, demigod children of hers, so they could have the family they always wanted. This is aligned with the caring and selfless nature that Hestia is portrayed as being in all three canons; mythos, Riordan and wikia.
- It can be plausible that Hestia already has demigod children; as per Riordan canon, Hestia doesn't mind being overlooked so can she already have some?
- This would, largely, depend on the outcome of this vote, however.
- Babies being born from the brain, much like Athena's children, is probably the only viable way Hestia could have kids as to retain her virginity
- As I mentioned above, it seems very possible that Hestia would give children to those who she believes deserve it; dutiful wives with no luck in fertility, those who keep the hearth (actual or metaphorical) alive in their homes, demigods that she has bonded with - the like
- With the introduction of Hearth Nymphs into the wiki, it has been established that Hestia has and would resurrect demigods she was close to or those she pitied as hearth nymphs. Though resurrection and birth are two vastly different things, is it too far-fetched to believe she could use her compassionate nature to bring life into the world through the disconnect allowed by the River Styx Oath?
- As I mentioned above, it seems very possible that Hestia would give children to those who she believes deserve it; dutiful wives with no luck in fertility, those who keep the hearth (actual or metaphorical) alive in their homes, demigods that she has bonded with - the like
- This next point only reinforces the likelihood of Hestia having children through her giving, kind and compassionate nature;
- Below when I discuss Vesta, it must be noted that as the Greek gods become their Roman selves, they become more militaristic and brutish as per Riordan canon. If the harsher, less kind and compassionate Vesta can bless people with her children then surely the demure, loving Hestia could do the same?
Arguments Against Hestia as a Godly Parent
- It is in Riordan canon that Hestia is exactly like Rhea in every single way but the desire to be a mother.
- The two quotes being; 'According to Percy Jackson's Greek Gods, Hestia's personality is very similar to that of her mother: She is a good-natured, gentle and understanding woman who never says a bad word about anyone' and then 'Hestia is extremely different from her mother in one regard: she had no desire to become a mother herself. Part of the reason was that she still recalled that terrifying moment of being swallowed by her father and could never forget how her mother had wailed in despair.'
- Following on from the latter quote, Hestia is so traumatised by being swallowed by her father that she has no desire to have kids. The screams of her mother and the whole action of being eaten is what led Hestia vowing to be a virgin. Do note that Hestia was the first Olympian child, therefore she was the first one eaten and Rhea hadn't gotten used to it and would've reacted the worst to Hestia's swallowing.
- Canon states that the Greek and Roman forms of the gods disliked one another; Terminus disliked that Athena had children as Minerva was a virgin goddess. Given the trauma Hestia has received over the years, I imagine she would be horrified that Vesta had children should they be allowed.
- The introduction of Hearth Nymphs on the wiki negates the need for Hestia children should the appeal be a character so intrinsically linked to/created by Hestia.
- There is reason to presume that Hestia might be really against brain children as a means of conception for herself. As established, she loves all demigods, but below is a reason as to why she might have an aversion demigods conceived via the brain (or at least their conception);
- Hestia was further disturbed and reminded of her own trauma when Zeus convinced the pregnant Metis to transform into a fly and swallowed her. As we know, the fully-grown Athena sprang from his head. It can be assumed that, with Athena being the first 'brain child' so to speak, Hestia might be put off by it as a way to have children herself. I understand this link is rather weak but this is a goddess with canon trauma from mythos from being swallowed; it's not hard to disbelieve that she might shy away from brain demigods due to Metis' swallowing.
- Hestia, in canon and mythos, seems to enjoy being skipped over and not noticed. Though this is more book canon than mythos, it seems integral to her character. A sudden influx of children of Hestia would ruin this low-profile lifestyle the goddess appears to prefer and would push her into the limelight where she clearly doesn't want to be
- We can insinuate that her giving up her chair for Dionysus in mythos as a way to calm any chaos is wholly indicative of that
- Whilst I don't think anyone, for Hestia, would suggest her having physical sex with a mortal to have a child of her's, here's some reason as to why that would go against Hestia regardless;
- In the discussion Hestia was labelled as asexual. Whilst this is us applying a modern term to it, mythos does suggest this is what she was. Following her encounter with Priapus and proposals from Poseidon and Apollo, Hestia is known for having a lack of interest in marriage and children as she becomes devout to the hearth. Zeus respects this about her and is why she's honoured so highly in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome.
- Though it was a near encounter, Hestia was nearly raped by Priapus. It's said that all gods came to attack Priapus after he tried to rape her, leading to further trauma.
- Following along from this, if all the Gods came to attack Priapus due to what he had nearly done to Hestia because they all valued her so, it seems unlikely that she would put a mortal in this position by having a child with them; should the demigod die, the gods could perceive the mortal as hurting Hestia and punish them accordingly
- In general it seems unlikely that Hestia would have a child full-stop; the goddess was close to all demigods and has intense trauma from people being swallowed, seemingly killed including herself. It seems highly unlikely that Hestia would place herself in a position where she'd have the heartache of her demigod children dying or experiencing something she's been canonly trying to avoid.
- The books patent Hestia as a caring aunt who loves all of her siblings and their offspring, mortal and immortal. It's clear she enjoys having no strings to any of them and enjoys life not being a mother.
- The love Hestia is portrayed as having in mythos towards mankind is general, not sexual.
- This does mean, as mentioned in the arguments for Hestia being a godparent, she may have been willing to gift a child to those she deemed worthy.
Comparing The For and Against Arguments
I feel it imperative with this nature of vote that we compare the two arguments alongside one another, rebutting the for arguments with the against as it is easiest. This is intended for you to see if the pros outweigh the cons; if Hestia could still have some children despite the arguments put up against it. Think of this section as a conclusion.
The points will be formatted as such;
- Point for Hestia having a child
- Point against, rebutting it
Here's the comparison;
- Hestia can have children based on the River Styx Oath and how that can alienate her from said children
- It was under the River Styx Oath that Hestia is believed to have thrived; she had no obligations to avoid any demigods and can move around as she pleases and interact with who she wants to. As a goddess who seems to enjoy the amount of freedom her scope and life gives her (see: her changing forms and tending to the hearth at Camp whenever she wants), it seems unlikely that she'd give it up and place restrictions upon herself that she's no way obligated to have imposed on her.
- May she already have some demigod children as she's often overlooked as per Riordan canon?
- Whilst there's no definitive argument against this, as it's purely based upon how this vote ends up, it can be argued that she probably wouldn't give her track record with trauma and dislike for motherhood. But, in the same breath, she could do.
- Hestia could have children conceived via the brain, much like Athena's children
- Through the trauma of being swallowed and then suffering further trauma by seeing Metis swallowed and Athena being born from Zeus's head, we can infer that a brain child would unnerve Hestia to say the least. Whilst this is us connecting the dots more than anything, it is plausible to believe that she'd have a distaste for this due to the association of the brain and being swallowed thanks to both Zeus and Kronos.
- Hestia is a giving, kind and compassionate goddess who loves demigods and mortals. Therefore she might give a child to those she believes are deserving.
- This love is said to to be purely general and not specifically sexual or motherly; though kind and warm, Hestia exhibits no desire to love the demigods as her children or mortals as her lovers. Instead, Riordian, and to an extent mythos, portray her as something akin to a loving aunt: dutiful and compassionate but with a distance.
Vesta as a Godly Parent [ Roman Inclusion ]
Vesta as a godly parent is slightly murkier than Hestia is. Although, yes, Vesta is also mentioned as being a virginal goddess and her myth is the exact same as Hestia's, Roman mythology has the inclusion of the Vestal Virgins.
You might be thinking, so what? Surely a whole following behind Vesta full of strict virgins only reinforces Vesta's virginity and means no children whatsoever? Not exactly. Jeanne Lorraine Schroeder mentions that many Vestal Virgins experienced miraculous pregnancies caused by a phallus appearing in the fire of the hearth - attributed as being the essence of the goddess herself. The direct copy and paste from Wikipedia that I have seen used in many scholarly articles and website is as follows;
| “ | The myths depicting Vesta and her priestesses were few, and were limited to tales of miraculous impregnation by a phallus appearing in the flames of the hearth—the manifestation of the goddess. | ” |
I'm unaware of which myths Jeanne gets this from as further research yields no results; rather that same phrase above is copied and pasted over and over again. In my research I found that it was likely that these miraculous pregnancies never resulted in the birth of a demigod child of Vesta. It appears more likely that any child created would've just been the mother's and have no connection to Vesta; the phallus in the fire appearing more as a means to get the woman pregnant rather than a way for Vesta to mother any demigod offspring of her own.
The reason this has to be considered, as I'm sure you can all deduce, is that there's nothing saying this miraculous impregnation can't result in the birth of demigods. Albeit no myth I found mentions this, the fact that it appears to be a credible thing many scholars believe, we cannot simply deny this avenue as a possibility. That, paired with the wiki's ruling that same-sex couples of god and mortal can have brain children (and the existence of brain children as a whole keeping a god's virginity in tact), means it is entirely possible that the only way that a child of Vesta can be born is explained through these phallus's found in the hearth's flames.
It must be noted that, in Roman times, Vesta was seen as an androgynous deity, both a god and a goddess. The Vestal Virgins were elevated above women in the Roman patriarchal society and treated as men. Vesta represented the heart of Roman culture and among her symbols was the phallus imagery Rome has come to be associated with. Therefore the phallus in the hearth can be deduced as little more as a testament to this androgyny or just honouring her; these miraculous pregnancies at the essence of Vesta isn't from her but just it's through the phallus in which Vesta is associated with. Despite this now, with little note of Vesta from Riordan, we can assume that Vesta is feminine like Hestia. Could we assume that, as she becomes more militaristic and ruthless as Vesta, that Hestia attempts to come across as a man to overcome all of her struggles? I, personally, don't think it's far-fetched.
Moreover, I believe if any form of a child of Hestia is allowed on the wiki, it should be through the avenue of children of Vesta born from miraculous pregnancies whenever our Roman Inclusion is introduced. These children should, however, be scarce in numbers.
How Does Hestia View The Vestal Virgins?
It's not really known how Hestia views the Vestal Virgins as Riordan offers little insight as to how she sees them and, of course, there's little to no evidence as to how the Ancient Greeks interpreted the Vestal Virgins into their own mythos. From what we know about the Greek-Roman interactions in the canon Riordan does offer, it is that the two sides tend to abhor one another. An example being Terminus is appalled that Athena has children and Minerva disliking the Romans and siding with the Greeks (despite being the Roman version of Athena) when the Romans stole the statue of Athena.
The Vestal Virgins and Hestia are a bit of an unknown playing field. No doubt that Hestia would appreciate the virgins but it's unclear as to whether or not she knows they exist as Minerva seems unaware of Athena's children. That being said, Minerva does recognise that the Romans stole the statue of Athena and exhibits resentment from it and from this it can be deduced that Hestia does know of the Vestal Virgins.
If that is the case, would they be the only ones she would give children to once they completed their thirty years of service? Or, as it is canon that the Greek and Roman forms work different, Hestia doesn't whilst Vesta does?
Proposed Regulations Should Hestia/Vesta Become Godly Parents
- The parent of any child of Hestia must have had either a deep connection with the goddess or suffered something so tragic that Hestia perceives a child as an apt thing to bestow upon them.
- The child isn't to be born through the brain or the act of sex, but rather more creative ways.
- An example of this could be Hestia enticing the mother to interact with some fire in which she gets pregnant.
Options
- Option One: Both Hesita and Vesta can be god parents, albeit histories must adhere to the above rules.
- Option Two: Neither Hestia nor Vesta can be god parents. This is the end of any discussion and shall not be brought up again.
- Option Three:Hestia cannot have any children but Vesta can when the Roman Inclusion is introduced.
Voting
Option One (+0)
Option Two (+6)
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